Episode #17

Episode #17: East Forest Psychedelic Leadership Podcast.

Duration: 1:12:28

Intro [0:02]: My name is Laura Dawn, and you’re listening to episode number 17 of the Psychedelic Leadership Podcast, featuring my super sweet conversation with the wonderfully talented musician, East Forest.

East Forest: Almost every ceremony indigenous ceremony that we have an example of its ancient lineage uses music as the vehicle of the ceremony, it is the ceremony as a reason why. And we can’t ignore that, across cultures. So, I think it’s the key, it’s a very useful key to unlocking a pretty powerful inner door. Now the world is entering through a bell curve of introspection. And I think that’s exactly what the planet needs. And we need as a species to learn and change. And I think music is one of the many tools we have in our belt, to help us live within. And psychedelics for me. 

Although I don’t engage in them all, super often, they’re a way of reorienting your map and your compass, no way. And they’ve been very powerful for me at that, teaching me about what’s important to me. Certain psychedelic moments have shown me a possibility not to show me I was in it, I felt it was real. And that was important for me to believe that something more could be possible that I knew could be, but I didn’t know, it gave me an experience of certain things of states and seeing behind the veil of just my mind. That it’s just a tool that’s a powerful tool for me, but it’s not like the thing. Life is the thing. That’s everything. And I’m not escaping life, I just have these moments where it helps me direct what I want to do with this life. And it helps me awaken to the presence of just what is and being. There isn’t anything else anyway. So, it breaks through the mine and the illusion.

If you’re not yet acquainted with East Forest’s music, especially if you’re on the medicine path, I highly recommend tuning in to what he’s been putting out there. He is such a prolific creator and has about 30 albums that you can listen to on Spotify, iTunes, or download on Bandcamp. And as we know, these have been really hard times for a lot of people. And I work a lot with entrepreneurs and executives and CEOs who are feeling the weight of stress, just from chronic overdoing, which is a territory I’m also very familiar with. And just the stress of riding these huge waves of change that we all face. 

And one of the first things I always recommend to my clients is to give themselves permission to slow down and go within which as we know, is so much easier said than done. And music can offer us that doorway to go within that invitation. And through the music that East Forest creates. It’s offering this bridge for us to come home to ourselves, inviting more introspection. And doing less, actually allows us to be much more effective in the way we show up and influence change. And he has quite a few meditations tracks both guided and instrumental, that I always recommend to my clients that I also listened to quite frequently. One of them is called Meditation for Chaotic Times. And here’s a little clip.

And I feature East Forest on me for free music playlists for psychedelic journeys and beyond and one of those playlists offers a variety of options to support introspection and meditation practice. And when you download those playlists on my website livefreelaurad.com it also comes with a whole guide on how to curate your music playlist for psychedelic journeys. Because as we know music plays a large and influential role in the outcome of our psychedelic experiences and so it’s worth putting in the time to fine-tune playlists that will resonate with you. And in that free guide, I also feature a whole section just on East Forest since he’s created an entire album called Music for Mushrooms which is well worth listening to. And I don’t just journey with his music I also wake up to his music I do yoga to his music I also make loved his music which again is probably a little too much information but it’s just to say that his music is so moving and deeply touching and incredibly beautiful. And I love his album he came out with featuring audio clips from Ram Das and in this episode, East Forrest talks about the time he spent with Ram Das and just how special that was. 

And I’ll be weaving his music throughout this entire conversation which is why I think I loved producing this episode I think it’s been my favorite one so far so all the music you hear in this episode is from East Forest. And there was a bit of a chunk at the end of our conversation that I had to take out to make this episode a little more compact and I removed a big section where I was asking him about a book that he’s currently working on and kind of struggling through and as someone who’s published two books myself, I understand how hard it is to complete a project like that. But he said something in there that I didn’t want to remove from the conversation about the way that music points to the mystery that was just so well said so I just want to play that short clip for you before we dive into the whole interview.

Words are hard because they’re so exact and so you playing with this thing that’s all representational and trying to put it together to create this feeling in a way that convey ideas and that’s a real art everyone knows this I guess but I’m just used to music which is so much more representational and diffuse it’s what I love about I think it’s almost closer to the mystery inherently from its constituent parts with words you have to be good at them to start to get closer to that mystery and still make sense you’re playing with the mind to get into the heart music can go right to the heart. So, it’s been a unique challenge for me because I’m not a writer or I should say I didn’t consider myself a writer. So, it’s been a cool experience but not an easy one.

East Forest is thoughtful and well-spoken and I just appreciate his perspective on things and a lot of what he had to say. And one more quick note before we dive in, I have my three-month Micro dosing Mastermind program coming up this June July and august specifically created for entrepreneurs who want to leverage a conscious micro-dosing practice to up level all aspects of their lives and expand their reach of influence. So, if this sounds interesting to you please check it out on my website livefreelaurad.com or reach out to me if you have any questions whatsoever also if you’re on clubhouse I am hosting a weekly micro-dosing room every Tuesday between six and 8 pm and if you’re not yet on the clubhouse and you’d like to join me there all include a link to my profile in the show notes and if you’re new to micro-dosing and you’re not sure where to start you can access my free eight-day micro-dosing course on my website livefreelaurad.com alright without any further ado here is my interview with East Forest. 

Laura Dan: Well, I can honestly say that I have been looking forward to this conversation with you. Thank you so much for joining me here today.

East Forest: Thanks. Nice to be here.

Laura Dawn: Okay, so this just feels mildly awkward to share, and vulnerable. But I feel I have this deep sense of connection with you just because I’ve had these profound experiences with plant medicines where I had you whispering in my ear. And I’m just grateful for those moments that you’ve held space for me through some incredibly challenging moments of my life. So, I just wanted to start this conversation off by saying, thank you, for holding space for me for those moments that felt tough.

East Forest: Cool. Well, that’s very sweet. Thanks for saying that.

Laura Dawn: I’m so curious. Where’s the name East Forest from?

East Forest: Well, that’s easy. That’s just my last name translated from German bows, Oswald, means East Forest. I’ve had some German speakers that tell me it’s not that simple. But my novice understanding is that I was just translated and my former wife spoke German. She’s fluent in German. So, she just mentioned that one day, maybe 12 years ago, before this project was anything. And I was trying to release my first record. And when she said that, I was, that that’d be a good way to, to identify. So, I just sort of slap that on it. And it’s stuck. So, here we are.

Laura Dawn: I love it. I love that name. What was your foray into psychedelics, and was that your pathway into sort of the path of spirituality?

East Forest: I would say it was my pathway to spirituality, I’m trying to think chicken or the egg kind of thing. And I think what my first important powerful experience with psychedelics with mushrooms, and was probably 18, or 19, in college, and I had a very strong experience and ego-death thing. And thankfully, it was positive. And it was a good experience. But it was also a bit confounding like I didn’t understand what happened. Or where I’d gone. I knew how it felt, it felt really important. But it was not something I understood, not that I understand it now. And I think, ever since that experience, I was sort of chasing that original experience or that feeling or that place of soul space that I felt I was in. And I wanted to be back there. I wanted to return there and understand it more. 

And a long story short, is that I started making music that I could use as a tool to help engender those states and guide me into them. Because I’d had after that other experiences where music played a really important role. And there’ll be moments where it all coalesced in this beautiful way. But I still didn’t understand why or how, how could I repeat that? Or how could I direct that a little bit? And that took me on the journey of trying to figure that out. But absolutely, I think for someone who grew up in a typical American Western way, I was pretty depressed as a kid. And it’s something that I’ve dealt with in different episodes of my life. And certain psychedelic moments have shown me a possibility, not just showing me, I was in it, I felt it was real. And that was important for me to believe that something more could be possible that I knew could be but I didn’t. It gave me an experience of certain things of states and seen behind the veil of just my mind. So, yes, it’s played a very important role for me. 

Laura Dawn: I know it’s hard to put words on it but when you say point to it and it was real and what are we pointing to I love that you said soul space that’s such a beautiful term I’ve not heard that before.

East Forest: Yes, there are words and symbols for something that is the mystery, and sometimes we’re able to just get so close to it by a breaking down of the structures that are typically in the way of us just being and a lot of that is a monologue in our head and our identity with our individuality, identity and our ego and so forth. And as those things start to have cracks and slip away oftentimes, you’re left with what I was calling soul space or God or non-duality, this sort of web of connection that that holds us all that we’re all in and I don’t always feel it in a way that’s always blissful and like unicorns and rainbows sometimes it’s more just sort of this extreme law sense of the law of just what is and that’s the playing field or on and there’s a power to that and there’s is no arguing with it just is. And when you start to feel yourself in the plenum of that energy it’s very powerful and it’s humbling and it’s not something, I claim to understand it just feels it’s just infinite nets of everything but I love how when you’re in those states you feel you can sum it up you have the understanding makes sense at the moment and maybe you write it down on paper and you come back and it’s just a triangle or something, everyone’s, that’s just a triangle.

Laura Dawn: Exactly and it’s usually so just simple and profound and usually comes with deep guttural laughter at the irony of it all.

East Forest: Yes, and I’m not trying to say that, it’s a triangle meaning it has no meaning I’m, no you did understand you did have these great meanings you’re now coming back into the octave of consciousness of this sort of three-dimensional thing and it’s trying to describe to my dog’s certain concepts. It just doesn’t have that same octave of consciousness, we share certain octaves but it doesn’t have these other ones it’s just, it’s never going to get that unless I dosed my dog so as far as language and things that they understand it in their way and so we have to understand the mystery and our way through representational reality, songs, music, art, poetry, and these altered states.

Laura Dawn: So, similar to the chicken or the egg with spirituality which came first for you, were you already musically inclined, or did that take off after you started working with psychedelics? It’s kind of remarkable I’ve seen this happen so much where people have never played music before and then they’ll go sit with Ayahuasca and I’ll see them three months later and they’re popping out songs. It’s always just so fascinating to see how psychedelics encourage our creativity so what was that for you.

East Forest: I think we’re all musicians on the level that we’re all can engage with music. I was weaved in and out of music my whole life since I was a little kid but I don’t think I started to find my voice my way with it until psilocybin gave me sort of a purpose of working with it to make music to guide people to guide myself. And then things started to deepen and open up and everything came together in a sense of my life itself and the way I walked my walk and my work all became one thing. So, that kind of harmony of everything coming together that I think just allowed it to blossom a little bit better. Because I wasn’t trying to pander anymore it was just more like what works or what excites me, just what excites me? And that’s where it was starting from. 

And I try to keep that as my NorthStar today. Because every day, there’s the chance to sort of fall off the saddle and you’re, all the shiny things and offers and this isn’t that some people you meet. And you’re always, okay, it’s the motivation here. Because it’s still coming from that place of the truth, is it still touching that place that I was reaching for internally so many years ago? Or am I excited for some sort of if I ever lost my way and a false North Star? But I think it’s something that you redirect, your kind of always tweaking the ship wheel that you’re steering, moment to moment, every day. And psychedelics for me, although I don’t engage in them all, super often, they’re a way of reorienting your map and your compass in a way. And they’ve been very powerful for me at that of teaching me about what’s important to me.

Laura Dawn [21:10]: I love how you said, did you create the music that you needed for your healing?

East Forest: Yes, inadvertently, and advertently, it was that first record, I put it out, it’s called the Education of the Individual Soul, and it’s free to download on my site. Always has been will be. I just would work on that for a year, back in 2008. And I didn’t know what I was making, I didn’t have a plan with it. But at the end of it, I knew it was inspired by certain moments I’d had on psilocybin and so I wanted to kind of honor that. I had a little ceremony where I, I took some mushrooms and lay on my bed. And when the medicine came on, I put the headphones on and hit play on this record I’d made and it changed my life. It felt like that was the birth of what became East Forest. It was very clear before and after. 

And I just felt that my soul I’d tricked my ego, into creating this art piece to use as a tool at that moment, to transcend it to a new sense of being and I didn’t even realize what I was making that whole year I’m just making it. And all of a sudden, I was, what did I do? And that was good enough for me, I was ready to just lay it down there and say, that’s what it was for. But I shared it with my girlfriend and my roommate, a friend. And they started having profound experiences. And then one of them pushed me into, I organized the circle, you’re going to play for. And I like, I don’t know about this. He’s, it’s cool. It’s Saturday, just you got to show up. And he just kept doing more and more of that. And because of that, I bit started developing a protocol, okay, how do I do this? How do we guide people on how we make it safe, and powerful, and positive? And long story short, here we are. 

I just kept doing that. I never thought the world would catch up to that being at all mainstream, it was very underground and very fringe, 12 years ago. It’s not that long. But believe me, it’s still super stigmatized, my God, people are doing drugs and this and that. You couldn’t get advertisers on websites if you wrote articles about it. And now, it’s the opposite. You can invest in companies making the medicine and it’s like a land rush. I feel it’s crazy. I haven’t changed what I’m doing at all. But I just was surprised that some of this long-form, experimental, ambient shamanic, whatever it is, music could find a place as you said, you don’t have to journey to it also. It’s just about introspection, and the world is entering through a bell curve of introspection. And I think that’s exactly what the planet needs. And we need as a species to learn and to change. And I think music is one of the many tools we have in our belt to help us dive within. 

Laura Dawn: I’ve been exploring altered states of consciousness for over two decades now and I could never have imagined that psychedelics and plant medicines would have gone mainstream like they are today. I don’t think anyone saw this coming and yet I just don’t think that it’s a coincidence that as we’re facing this time of upheaval and transition and crisis that we’re also witnessing the proliferation of these powerful substances that fundamentally change the way we perceive and the way that we think. What’s your narrative around this?

East Forest: You cannot see the alignment of the transition we’re in as a people. And the role that psychedelics play in it especially for anyone who’s had the experience with psychedelics a peak state of altered consciousness. I don’t have to explain that what it feels like, but I’ve often felt it’s sort of yin yang of growth and death and birth whereas we’re seeing one level of chaos and destruction the unveiling so to speak the burning of the fields and we have equal measure there is a level of an uprising of another energy of revelation and change and choice. And so, I think they do go hand in hand and it’s important to hold that truth if it has meaning for you because it’s easy to focus on the destruction. 

Well, that’s half the picture and that is true and that suffering is real but it sure seems that psychedelics are playing a role as an accelerant I can only speak for myself and it’s just a tool that’s a really powerful tool for me but it’s not the thing, life is the thing. That’s everything and I’m not escaping life I just have these moments where it helps me direct what I want to do with this life. And it helps me awaken to the presence of just what is and being there isn’t anything else anyway. So, it breaks through the Maya, the illusion of our obsession with the past in the future or attempts to protect ourselves, and really in a time when it’s so fractured polarized, and intense it takes some serious Jedi energy and the scent of soldier energy of love of focus. Because falling off your point of presence is incredibly easy these days and our attention is vied for by 1000s of actors Ajay mostly digital and so it is up to us as individuals to write that ship and to do it from moment-to-moment hour by hour. 

And I’ll admit it’s hard work but I think things like the psychedelic journeys can be really powerful tools to create accelerant of change I should say accelerant of choice like people make the changes themselves and the choices that you can easily have these experiences and do nothing with it that’s your choice so integration in some ways is everything but I’m hopeful I am. I think it’s going to be messy a bit this revolution of science and legality and decriminalization but I’m quite hopeful that this is the path I would like to see. I certainly don’t want to see people in jail or their lives ruined for engaging with their consciousness and these chemicals and plants but there’s going to be some mistakes and there’s going to be some bad actors and this can be just so as I was said before it’s going to be a bit of both.

Laura Dawn: What were you’re feeling about putting out an album specifically called Music for Mushrooms and just naming it so overtly have you received any criticism around that and do you feel like that’s encouraging people to work with psychedelics at home? Do you feel a sense of responsibility around that, ethically just what are your thoughts on that?

East Forest: I tend to be a little more on the spectrum of caution and care that being said, I’m in the business of providing tools and information for people. I think people are out there doing the things they want to do they’re going to explore with psychedelics so I want to be giving them a guide or a tool or information. I’m playing a small role in that but I saw a void with music and the role music plays particularly in mushrooms and psilocybin and early is in the research that was going on at the various institutions. But regular folks and I had been doing this work underground in our circles for a bit a long time as well we have a protocol that’s working for us and I have this music and I’ve been sharing it but not saying I just shared the music as a musician. 

And so, a few years ago I just thought I’m feeling the calling to just put out a full experience and call it what it is. It’s a five-hour album Music for Mushrooms a soundtrack for the psychedelic practitioner. And it’s from a ceremony and its life and it’s improvised and there it is and I wanted it to serve as a digital guide essentially and I didn’t know if that would work because when we do it live, I’m playing I’m responding in a sense to the energy in the room. So, I’m a guess it’s sort of a static experience in a cool will that works I don’t know but I was willing to try. And it seems from my friends and then the messages I get from people all over the world. It’s profoundly touching to hear someone say I had this journey and it was going bad and I know what that feels like, how terrifying that is and they say somehow I thought if this record is remembered and somehow I got it playing and then it took me on that journey and it went into complete healing and bliss and thank you, you saved my life and I know I didn’t save your life I know the music played a role now I’m saving their own life but I know what they went through in that sense because I’ve gone through that. 

And just helping one person to me is enough it was enough when I had just my own experience so I think this has the potential to reach many 1000s of people over decades. And I just want it to be a tool so I think it’s important for us to be providing lots of information and tools and learning and experimenting and seeing what works I’m not afraid of experimenting with technology and how that could maybe help or maybe not but let’s play let’s find out because maybe we can learn some powerful additional ways. So, I think people are pushing the limits a lot more than me so I don’t get a lot of criticism about advocating for it or because I feel I’m quite measured about it and I do not engage in something where I am doing anything illegal or pushing anyone’s limits or I’m just here offering information and tools. 

But there are some just to talk about the pandemic and people not gathering hopefully we’ll be moving through that hopefully soon I don’t know but maybe not I’ve seen some circles happening on zoom. Where you have the music studies my album playing everyone’s on the same timeline from one device so you’re not looking at a screen and then but you have a sitter on zoom who’s maybe watching three people alright so there are multiple sitters as you kind of have somebody there and there is a circle of people and you engage with that circle before and after maybe the next morning integration and people have reported being extremely positive and their new advantages they hadn’t thought of, I felt more comfortable in my own home as opposed to traveling to someplace or another country so these are sort of the silver linings inside the bitter medicine and as many of those. 

And so I think there’s a lot to learn and I think there are experiences to gain but I think experimentation is good but I think having great care and something like the north star pledge for instance about psychedelic ethics and in therapy, these things are extremely important I could go on and on about this ketamine therapy it’s a lot of these centers they’re just injecting people there’s actually no therapy they’re just giving you the medicine and that’s a small part of it but you’re taking people into soul space and very vulnerable states we need to bring more care to this and more structure and more guidance more holding and We’re getting there, but it’s a learning process.

Laura Dawn: I feel that.

East Forest: I do tell people though, it’s about lessening of control in a way, as you can’t say that your psychedelic journey is going to be like such and such. You set yourself up for success. But I don’t know, and sometimes people do have challenging experiences, sometimes they do have contradictory things going on with automatic medications or conditions they have, or certain life circumstances. And these are real. It could be psychologically traumatic. I’ve certainly had my share of psychologically traumatic experiences, and I don’t take those lightly at all. And so, I do not think it’s a panacea that’s right for everyone. And it’s okay. If you don’t want to do that. You can have a meaningful, powerful spiritual life. If there’s no game or scale, to say, if you’re not in the psychedelic club, you’re missing out on something. Is it extraordinary? Yes, it is. But my heart tells me it’s not a requirement to be a human being. It’s just one of the many things on this planet available to us.

Laura Dawn: I’d love to get a little metaphysical with you here. I’m just so curious. Because from my experience with journeying with plant medicines, I feel because I’m in an altered state of consciousness, that it’s the frequency of sound and the lyrics oftentimes that are being carried from that sound that can penetrate my subconscious mind in a different way than I normally could access in normal waking consciousness. How much do you feel like the sound is the vehicle for healing in ceremonies?

East Forest: I’ve felt what I feel like you’re insinuating on music, it’s really what I was talking about before, what drove me to try and make my music. When we’re on psychedelics, your things are amplified, you’re more receptive. And I so I think that’s why it’s important, or helpful to be careful about what you want to amplify, and what you’re bringing in. Because I think perfunctory things, just a flower or a piece of growl, anything, you can start to see the true beauty and miracle of anything, including in the way music works. If you just think about it at face value, it’s incredible. There’s this ratio in the universe, in a sense. So, we take rhythm by hitting things together. And then we take various tones that we can manipulate in all these different ratios to make harmonies. 

And there are only 12 notes on a piano, just for reference, and most music is made with those 12 notes. And we’ve made infinite songs. And it’s so present in our lives. It’s like asking a fish, what water is, it’s everywhere. It’s so important to us. And we talk with sounds and we’re swimming in music and swimming in the rhythm and tonality. And so, I think it’s an incredibly powerful tool. But it’s incredibly, infinitely complex. And that’s why it’s an art. That’s why when we connect with music that feels authentic, or at the moment, or some flow or a real voice of someone, we like it because that means it’s closer to the void. It’s closer to the mystery. It’s right up against or tethered into the actual source. And it’s translating it through the music now into this dimensional reality. And so, it’s a reminder for us, and there are moments where there’s the alchemy of certain ratios and combinations and lyrics and tones, where it’s just, yes, my God. 

Yes, and that can happen infinite times. And that’s what I live for. But on medicine, man, there’s nothing like it. And I think that’s why almost every ceremony indigenous ceremony that we have an example of its ancient lineage uses music as the vehicle of the ceremony. It is the ceremony, and there’s a reason why, and we can’t ignore that cross cultures. So, I think it’s the key. It’s a very useful key to unlocking a pretty powerful inner door. And on a most practical level sound is frequency quite literally and it’s a physical sensation of pressure waves. So, not even metaphysical at all, I’m just saying, it is about various forms of frequency relationships of those together, the harmony and the math of that, and what kind of shapes it creates these sorts of physical shapes, you can see them quite easily with cymatics. And that’s, that’s very real. And See, we feel it physically. And so, it’s no surprise that it can, you can also use sound as a weapon, you could kill someone with sound, you can break things or sound. So, it’s just one of the main substrates of existence, and it’s cool that we can play with it.

Laura Dawn [40:47]: I remember the first time that I listened to a couple of the songs on the Ram Das album, I was just coming out of a solo set with plant medicines. And it’s kind of cool how you can put this video loop on your songs on Spotify now. And I was listening to one of the songs and there was this video of you playing on the piano with this, soft sunlight coming through the window. And it just made me cry. It was so tender; I was in such a tender place. And there was something just so beautiful about the way you were playing. And I have also been such a big fan of Ram Das and his teachings. And I thought, what an honor, it must have been to spend some of those last years of his life with him and receive these teachings from him. And just so remarkable that he also found his path of spirituality through his journey work with psychedelics. I’m so curious, what were some of the gems that came from that time?

East Forest: Yes, a total honor. He does say, in a song Home on that record, I asked him about psilocybin and how it’s going through this whole Renaissance and so forth. And the first thing he said is that psilocybin is his friend. And then it started him on his spiritual path. Now, the sort of pause for a minute and think with that he’s saying he’s saying mushrooms made him Ram Das, we wouldn’t have Ram Das and his whole journey was like he lit a fuse when he had that first journey. With Allen Ginsberg, type theory, Ram Das, and he’s just got a house. He’s sitting on the couch and his body disappeared, and he’s, my gosh. And he felt that oneness and that ineffable feeling for the first time. 

So, in the depth of it, and it awakened something in him that wanted to be awakened It turned into a flowering of his life path being an example of his work. And then him touching many millions of people. It’s profound. So, getting to cross paths with him and just even a small way and, and we with him, it was an honor to unwittingly be with him for his last two years of his life. I suppose we knew he wasn’t going to be alive that long because he was very old and frail. But you never know when someone’s going to pass and he died a few days. Within the release of the final release, which was a called the Reworks album is kind of the last thing we put out. It was right around the solstice of the winter. And it was not at all a final moment, it certainly marked the end of his incarnation. But for me, it just felt like things continue to blossom. And I feel the relationship I have with him. With Maharajji, his guru feels very alive and continues to unfold in different ways, webs of connection. And so, I’m just very humbled by it. And I’m very grateful that it could happen at all, and that we had the opportunity to do it. And then he was able to speak that day. And it became, I believe, his last recorded final teachings. 

We didn’t know that at the time, but I was there a little later. The next time I saw him after that the next retreat in Maui says, like, I don’t know, another season or two later, he wasn’t speaking anymore. He was just present, so you can’t record that. And what he did record for the