Episode #50

Episode #50 Full Transcript: Applying Acceptance & Commitment Therapy To Create A Powerful Model (ACER) for Preparation & Integration For Psychedelic Leaders with Dr. Rosalind Watts Psychedelic Leadership Podcast.

My name is Laura Dawn, and you’re listening to episode #50 of the psychedelic leadership podcast, featuring a very special conversation with clinical psychologist and the founder of ACER Integration, and a woman whose work I deeply admire, Dr. Rosalind Watts.  

It feels so good to be celebrating this milestone of the podcast, officially halfway to 100 episodes, and I can’t believe I’m about to say this but I’m just about to hit 100,000 thousand downloads on the show, SO I want to open this episode by saying thank you, thank you for tuning in, and supporting the show, it’s been incredible to watch it grow, and to also witness my own growth in the process as well. 

And what a better way to celebrate than to feature a woman who’s really been at the forefront of psychedelic research,  and whose work has really inspired my path and the work I’m doing around psychedelics, creativity and leadership. 

Dr Rosalind Watts was the clinical lead on the Psilocybin for Depression trial at Imperial College London, and she led a team which facilitated over a hundred psilocybin treatment sessions. And the outcomes of this research has played such an influential role in the field. 

And through that work Dr. Rosalind Watts recognized that safe and effective use of psychedelics requires substantial integration support, which led her to co-found the UK’s first psychedelic integration group,  and she’s now launching a global online integration community built on her ACER model which stands for  ‘Accept, Connect, Embody, Restore’ (ACER) where members follow a 12 month process that has a strong emphasis on our connection to nature and I love that her model draws upon the Celtic Calendar where each month is designed around the inherent lessons we can learn from 12 different trees, and Dr. Watts runs through each of these trees in this episode and I just love how lit up she gets when she talks about it.  

And her ACER integration program is launching soon, and they are doing a live event on May 6th, and I’ll include a link to that in the show notes if you want to attend. 

And as per usual there are quite a lot of resources mentioned through this episode, and like we do for every episode, we accumulate all the links and resources shared and put them all in one place for you to easily access so for this episode you can go to lauradawn.co/50 so it’s always really easy for you to remember. And I created a free integration guide that you can also download on that page, that’s a great complimentary resource for this particular episode. 

And for those of you who have been tuning in regularly to this show, you know that I often like to share long intros, and I really put a lot of time into these intros with the sole intention of offering a more in-depth context so that you can really get the most out of each episode. And of course, if you don’t want listen to the intro, just skip ahead. 

So I’m going to connect some dots here to really set the stage for this conversation. 

So this concept of psychological flexibility is a central theme and really a core component of this conversation. And Psychological flexibility is different than cognitive flexibility and it refers to an individual’s ability to cope with, accept, and adjust to difficult situations. Psychological flexibility can also be described as an essential set of processes that help people manage stressors and engage in adaptive behaviors that promote values-driven action. 

And you can’t get very far researching psychological flexibility without immediately stumbling upon a framework called Acceptance and Commitment Therapy because it’s really built around this core concept of psychological flexibility. 

Now for the past couple of years in graduate school, I’ve been studying the overlap and intersection between psychedelics, creativity and leadership, specifically change leadership, how we effectively adapt in the face of change. 

And psychological flexibility is actually one of quite a few sort of nexus points that bridges the gap mental pathology and mental health. And so in a way, I’ve been making a case that the same reasons psychedelics help to alleviate depression might be very similar reasons as to why psychedelics can support creativity, even though there’s very minimal research done specifically on psychedelics and creativity. But we can actually connect some of these dots. 

between psychedelics and creativity, and in many ways we can say that creativity and creative thinking is a function of mental health and wellbeing. 

And there’s been research showing that psychological flexibility plays a mediating role in how effective psychedelics are in helping to reduce the symptoms of depression and we also know that increased psychological flexibility is related to high levels of idea generation and creative achievement. 

And because I’m also looking at this within the context of leadership development, when I starting really diving into Acceptance and Commitment therapy about a year and a half ago, I found it to be an incredibly effective model that we can draw upon for integration for supporting leaders because it’s a model that essentially helps support people manage stressors and engage in adaptive behaviors that promote values-driven action – which is central to leadership development. And this is how I came across my of Dr. Watts work, and the research she’s doing, and although she’s be using this model within the context of depression, it’s remarkably applicable for effectively training leaders for a new era. 

And that’s why I was so excited to have Dr. Rosalind Watts on the Show. 

And towards the end of this conversation, I share with her some of the work I’ve been doing, and we put a leadership lens on this model she’s developed, which has inspired my own model and the work that I’m doing in the leadership development space. 

And we also talk about female leadership, and explored what it means to be a female leading in this space and the importance of women contributing their voices and their work to this field. 

And I just loved this episode, all the way until the very end. 

And I’m also so thrilled to be featuring music by Leah song and her sister chloe otherwise known as Rising Appalachia. I’m featuring their song Stand like Oak, it’s the perfect song to compliment this episode. They have a new album called the Lost Mystic of Being in the Know, you got to check that out as well.,

I’m so thrilled to be the headlining speaker at ARISE music festival at the end of May in Boon Colorado. I’ve been working really hard these past few months and I am ready to go let loose. So if you want to join me, I’ll add a link to get your tickets in the shownotes, with a special code to get an extra 15% off your ticket price. 

Alright friends, I’m so stoked for you to listen to this episode, without any further ado, here is my very special conversation, celebrating episode #50 with Dr. Rosalind Watts. 

Watts Connectedness Scale, which is a psychometric tool for measuring outcomes of psychedelic therapy. Dr Watts is the clinical track lead on the Synthesis Institute’s psychedelic practitioner training and sits on the clinical advisory board of the Usona Institute. Her website is drrosalindwatts.com

Laura Dawn: Hi, Dr. Rosalind Watts. It is so nice to be able to drop in with you in real time. I’ve been such a fan of your work for so long. So thank you so much for taking the time to drop in with me here today. You it’s lovely to be. So I thought we would just dive right in. I love that your work really draws upon this whole modality of acceptance and commitment therapy.

And we’re looking at the ways that, uh, this, this concept of psychological flexibility is such an influential role in the mediation of depression and psychedelic experiences. And as we’ll maybe touch on at the end, how that actually plays a role in enhancing creative thinking and creative problem solving as well.

So I was thinking we could just start by defining for people listening, who don’t know about acceptance and commitment therapy and why this is such an integral role in developing your models for preparation and integration. Um, well, acceptance and commitment therapy was something that I came across when I was doing my clinical psychology training and the core kind of, um, I guess for me the core concept or the concept that I first arrived at, the one that really influenced me so much was the hex of flex.

So the hex of flex is a, um, it’s a, it’s a hexagon has six points and each one of those is a different aspect of this thing that in its entirety becomes psychological flexibility. So I can, I can kind of talk around that the six points, if that’s, if that’s helpful. I remember seeing this, um, this diagram and thinking how it was, it was interesting to me because it was a model both of, um, I guess deficit because a lot of clinical psychology, which was the way I was trained, looking at deficits or pathologies, all the things that are wrong and symptoms of disorders, that’s the kind of language that is used in that, in that model, that, that way of looking at human beings.

But what I love about the hex of flex is that each of the six points of corresponds to it can either be, it can be something that is either in deficit or it can be in fullness. So it gives us something to work towards. It’s not just the model of, um, of mental illness, but it’s a model of humanity with, with, with, it gives us a map for how to actually it gives us a map and a direction in which to travel, rather than just saying, you’ve got these symptoms, this is wrong with you.

You have this disorder, it’s like a heart. This is a map. It gives us direction. So the sixth and in a way, I also like it because it’s cross diagnostic so different. It takes away the stigma of the different disorders and the different names and the DSM criteria, all the things that are wrong. And instead, it’s something that we can all relate to.

We can all consider where we are on these spectrums of psychological flexibility. So the first is diffusion. And so that’s the first one of the six points and diffusion. Um, you, you know, what about this, but, and so your please time in as well with your, with your kind of additions to, um, so diffusion really is, is so important for psychedelic therapy as well, because it’s about diffusing from the.

In a way, the kind of the ego voice there, the constant rumination that we can get stuck on. So just the mental chatter, it’s, it’s being able to recognize that that is there and know that it’s not the truth. It know that it’s not everything. It is. It is a kind of radio station that your mind is playing based on old stories.

And to be able to hear it as that. And I think in our modern world, now there’s so much more literacy and awareness around this, around, um, around the ego and around the mental chatter that we all get so bombarded with by ourselves and being able to detach from it. So, yeah, diffusion, um, is the first one.

To be fusing from, from negative, constant thinking. And then the next one is present moment focus. And that one is really in a way, what kind of happens when you can diffuse from that constant mental chatter from the ego, which is giving you this bombardment of things, not to do things to avoid, to keep you safe.

And it’s what, what we can come into when we’re, when we dive underneath that. And it’s being in our senses, being in the now then after present moment focus. And the wonderful thing about the hex of flex is it works in all different directions. You don’t start at one point and then somewhere else, it’s not linear.

It’s a very, um, flexible model. Um, so, but for me after present moment focus, I think of willingness to feel. So that is coming out, diving out of your head and into your body, into your emotions. And I think what is so wonderful about act acceptance and commitment therapy compared to, um, cognitive behavioral therapy, for example, Is the CBT cognitive behavioral therapy focuses a lot on the content of your thoughts and trying to argue with them or challenge them, or look at alternatives and act in a way of saying, yeah, yeah.

Just notice the mind doing its thing. It’s going to do its thing, but what are you feeling? What are you feeling and how can you open that up? How can you make that bigger? And rather than avoiding it running away from it, trying to shut it down, let’s really give that feeling room to breathe and befriend it and say yes to it.

So that’s willingness to feel. And then the next one is, uh, the observer self or self as context. And that one I struggled to understand at first, but the other thing about act is that they have amazing metaphors and analogies for everything. So the way I understood, um, self as context or the observer self is it’s the sky, not the way.

The larger self, the self encompasses everything else. Um, and then there is values. So knowing what your values are, knowing what direction you want your life to go in. And often when you have acceptance and commitment therapy sessions, the therapist will start with values and say, okay, right. We know you’re suffering.

What do you want your life to be about? Let’s go there and we’ll deal with the other stuff on the way. So if valleys is often a good place to start, and then the final one is committed action. So doing things in service of those values and not when I hear you say, you know, present moment awareness and that it’s the sky and not the weather.

I mean, this is almost word for word analogies that come from lineages of Buddhism. And I’m curious how much you’ve connected those dots. And if that’s a, uh, just a modality or, or a framework that you also hold simultaneously alongside AC. So actually the, so Steve Hayes who develops developed example and commitment therapy developed it from his practice in Buddhism, I believe.

So. It really was, it was born out of that tradition and it’s not something I have practiced myself. Um, yeah, it’s one of the, I mean, I’m, it’s pretty fascinating, but yeah, I’ve never studied it or gone in depth, but many of the participants actually that I’ve worked with have after psychedelic experiences, they’ve looked into to Buddhism.

As a framework for emerging spirituality that they might feel after a psychedelic experience. So, um, and I I’ve heard you apply this model to preparation specifically that you walk people through a sort of visualization process before they go into a silicide bin journey and you use this powerful metaphor of the Pearl.

And I was wondering if you could share that process, how this maps over to preparation specifically. Yeah, absolutely. So each one of those six hex of flex points, um, actually in the audio that in the order, they said them, um, correlates to this visualization of this Pell dive. So, um, the day before set aside one session, we would encourage the participant to lay back on the beds.

Um, but the music on in the background, the lights would be nice and Dem they’d really be relaxed and have one guide on either side. So in a way, kind of a run through for how the session would go. And we would say, you know, um, one way of thinking about a psilocybin experience is that it can be a bit like a diving for pals.

So we’re going to use this analogy of a pole dive as a way of you kind of practicing. So when you take the psilocybin capsules tomorrow, it’s going to be a bit like imagining that you’re diving down beneath the surface of the sea. And if people consented to doing that visualization, then we would lead them through a screen.

Where someone imagines it imagines being on a beach. And then they imagine a boat coming towards the shore and they get on the boat and they take them right out to the middle of the ocean. And then there’s that anticipation of an anxiousness and nerves of like, oh goodness, what am I going to do?

Because people often felt so much of that. And then they’re at the top of their, their special seat for them at the top of the bow. And the sun is shining and the sea is beautiful. So try and get that sense of you might feel nervous, but this is a really sacred, special thing that you’ve chosen to do. And then the moment that they will take the psilocybin capsules, we liken it to them climbing down the stairs or the latter on the side of the boat and dive into they’ve got the scuba scuba gear on diving down into the surface of the.

So that diffusion thing that I mentioned, um, coming out of these, these thoughts that was like, imagine that the waves are kind of coming back against them. So they’re swimming against the waves at first and there’s wave after wave after wave of thought, thought thinking, and that’s the ego mind when you first take the psilocybin saying, I’m going to hold on a minute.

You can’t deactivate me. I’m still here. And so it gives you these strong waves of thinking, thinking, and you swim against them. And then you decide to just drop down and you let go. You surrender though down beneath the surface of those thoughts. And then you come into the present moment, focus of that sensory awareness of your body.

So as people dive down, we would often to imagine doing a body scan from their fingertips to their toes as they’re diving down and just really feel into their body and feel into any tensions or feelings. And then of course, this wasn’t actually with the psilocybin. This was the preparation day. So. They wouldn’t be feeling psychedelic effects.