Episode #51

Episode #51 Full Transcript: Regulate Your Nervous System, Manage Stress and Prevent Burnout with Your Breath with Robbie Bent on the Psychedelic Leadership Podcast.

My name is Laura Dawn, and you’re listening to episode #51 of the Psychedelic Leadership Podcast featuring my conversation with my dear brother Robbie Bent,  founder my favorite breathwork Othership Breathwork, and we’re going to dive into how you can use your breath to Regulate Your Nervous System, Manage Stress and Prevent Burnout. 

One of the core themes that keeps coming up in so many conversations I’m having with other leaders and entrepreneurs the psychedelic space, and you know,  pretty much all of my friends and everyone I talk to on a regular basis are supporting the movement in one way or another. 

And I think a big theme that’s up right now is awareness around burnout and a need for more burnout prevention strategies. 

I think a lot of people are feeling maxed out and overwhelmed and there’s a need for more balance and tools for managing stress. 

And stress management is a major component of effective leadership development, and learning how to draw upon easily accessible tools, like the power of your breath to immediately regulate your nervous system and change your physiological state is invaluable, and in this episode you’re going to learn the exact technique you can use to either up-regulate your nervous system or down-regulate, depending on the situation. 

And I want to frame this discussion within the context of leadership. 

One of the foundations of effective leadership development training is actually training in emotional intelligence, and learning how to regulate your nervous system and become more aware of your physiological state directly contributes to heightened emotional intelligence. 

There are 4 major sub categories of emotional intelligence and learning to conscisouly work with your breath helps with strengthening emotional self awareness and emotional self regulation. 

By learning how to balance your nervous system, you can take control of your emotional and physical wellbeing

 and learning to master these skills helps you adapt more effectily in the face of change and all the curve balls that we as leaders and entrepreneurs face on a daily basis. 

And beyond talking about the breath, I just want to invite everyone listening to remember that we don’t need to be in such a rush. And I know so many of us care so deeply and we’re so passionate about the cause and want to contribute to it, and There’s this powerful saying that reminds us to stay behind the medicine. It means to not get ahead of ourselves, especially when working with these powerful substances.  

There’s so much movement and excitement happening in the space right now, I think it would be so good if we could collectively slow down, re-attune to our heart centered values, broaden our perspective, weave some humor into the process, and take a breath, literally. 

And I love the Othership breathwork app, because it really helps me stay rooted in my own daily practice of self care. 

As many of you know, I’ve also just had a super full plate. So I’m not except from this advice I’m offering here, and it’s actually why I feel inspired to speak to this topic right now because Burnout has definitely been in my peripheral field of awareness these past couple of months. 

I’ve been finishing graduate school, running this podcast which in and of itself is almost a full time job, I’ve been leading this 12-week psychedelic leadership mastermind for women with almost 40 women in this cohort, and I’m weeks away from the launch of Grow Medicine, which has been one of the most significant and challenging and rewarding initiatives I’ve ever led, which you can learn more about at growmedicine.com we just updated the pre-launch landing page, and it’s looking incredibly epic. 

I also have some really big speaking gigs coming up, I’m offering the Keynote at Arise Music festival, 

So all that being said, taking care of myself is becoming increasingly crucial and important, and as I said, the othership breathwork app is just becoming apart of my daily routine to engage in self care. 

And so I wanted to bring Robbie Bent, the founder of othership back on the show to really just focus on this topic of nervous system regulation, what it is, why it’s important and simple techniques you can use to change your state within a few moments. 

You can access all the resources mentioned in this episode by going to lauradawn.co/51 where we also created a free pdf on breathwork and nervous system regulation, and along with that PDF you’ll also get access to a downloadable MP3 of a guided breathwork session called Abundance created by othership, so you can experience their magic, and instead of featuring a song at the end of this episode, I’ll be leaving you with a 10 minute long guided breathwork session called Heartbeat that focuses on the breath as a powerful tool for nervous system regulation also created by the othership team. 

I’m also going to include a link in the shownotes that gives you 2 free weeks to the othership app. 

Alright friends, without any further ado, here is my conversation with the founder of Othership, Robbie Bent.

Laura Dawn: Aloha, hey Robbie. Nice to see you, brother. How are you doing today?

Robbie Bent: I’m doing excellent, grateful you had me excited to share is the topic I’m personally really passionate about, so just appreciate the chance to have a little chat.

Laura Dawn: Yeah, I know you’ve got a lot going on. You’re leading some really big projects that are so exciting, such a huge offering to our whole community. So maybe we can just dive right into the importance of talking about nervous system regulation. I know, especially a lot of people in the psychedelic space right now are just, we’re leading at the forefront of such an emergent space, I hear people all the time using this analogy that we’re flying, we’re building the plane while we’re flying it. And I think a lot of people are experiencing a lot of overwhelm and the necessity to call upon strategies for stress management. And so that’s why I wanted to have you on, it just feels like such a pertinent topic. So let’s just dive right in and talk about nervous system regulation and the importance of this topic right now.

Robbie Bent: Absolutely. So, the simplest way to explain a complex concept is if you think about it as a triangle and so on one corner of the triangle, you have the gas pedal. And so that’s your fight or flight nervous system, your fight or flight response, it’s called the sympathetic nervous system state. And so that’s as an ancient person, you’re out at night, there’s danger, a tiger, a lion in today’s society, you’re walking through an alley and you hear like a boom. Wow. You know, that, that fear that comes on, right? So that’s your fight or flight, it’s your fight flight or freeze mechanism. It’s your body preparing for action, blood flow headed to the brain and the muscles you’re getting ready, you’re becoming focused, you’re becoming vigilant, so that’s one. 

The other side of the nervous system is called the parasympathetic, the rest in the digest state. And it’s in that state where we’re balanced, we’re finding meaning we’re feeling emotions. So think about eye gazing with your partner, giving a hug to your mom, laughing, having dinner with friends, sitting down to eat your blood flow, your body saying, Hey, I’m safe. Blood flows moving from your brain to your organs for digestion and so you’re feeling oxytocin, joy emotions. And so throughout history, those nervous system states have been quite balanced and in the last 10 years, things have really changed with the carrying of the cell phone and you mentioned burnout, overwhelm. And now we have this device in our pocket, our brain doesn’t know the difference between perceived stress. So slack message, discord message, zoom, oh my god, I’m late for a meeting, unending email, social media, all of that our brain equates to real stress and as a result, the fight or flight state is triggered. So we’re in this state now where 90% of our day, if you’re an entrepreneur or at least stage entrepreneur leader, 95% of your day, you could be in that fight or flight nervous system state. That’s why you ask people and the response is I’m busy, I’m busy, I’m so busy, I’m overwhelmed and it’s everyone. It’s just because there’s a never-ending stimulus. Like if you’re a listener and I asked you when was the last time you were bored, the answer is never. You’re sitting at a restaurant waiting, phone out, check social media, you’re catching an elevator, oh, boom, and phone, check social media. Oh, I’m going to check my emails.

This amazing test on adults and had them put their phones down at the start of a presentation and then 15 times the average person would go to pick up their phone and agitation would start increasing. So that’s why it’s important to understand the nervous system state because the way society acts now has really changed. So those are the two angles of the triangle, right? The up, pushing the gas pedal the down, pushing the break. And then the final is everyone’s nervous system state is different and how our nervous system state regulates how the level of stress we can deal with what really triggers that fight or flight is based on something else. So that’s sort of our vagal tone, there are a few other names, but what it is basically is where psychedelics tie in somebody who’s had dramatic experiences as a child is much more likely to enter that fight or flight state. Whereas somebody who hadn’t had those experiences may not have those same fears and so nervous system regulation also means processing emotions and traumas, whether it’s through psychedelic medicines, breath work, nature retreat, different things to kind of get into the nervous system and push those traumas experiencing them. So that’s just quickly the triangle is pushing the gas pedal, pushing the brake, and then increasing the resilience of the nervous system by processing emotions.

Laura Dawn:  All right, and you use the word perceived stress, which is an interesting take. So it’s like, there are ways that we can draw upon actual modalities, like breath to influence our physiological state, and then there are other aspects of psychology that we can touch on. And before we get there, let’s just dive into breath work and how we can work with the breadth on either a daily basis or even a moment-to-moment basis to help regulate our nervous systems.

Robbie Bent: Absolutely, and so what’s really interesting is this triangle as I mentioned your breath, a tool that’s free actually affects all three. And so our breath can control what’s called our autonomic nervous system. So it’s just our automatic nervous system. So that means heart rate, digestion, blood flow, emotional state, hormonal release immune system. So for people who didn’t know our breath is our number one tool to hack into our emotional state that’s available at all times and so let’s talk about the gas pedal, the fight or flight. Quick breathing, getting rid of additional CO2 is going to create that fight or flight state. You may have heard of Wim Hof’s breath of fire, and Holotropic breathing, all of these styles create a fight or flight response. You can actually do this in under two minutes by breathing out excess CO2, increasing the rate of inhaling, and speeding up the breath, so there’s exercise to do that. So, maybe your morning coffee, your afternoon procrastination, you want energy that’s available to you, the rest and digest response, the break parasympathetic part of the nervous system long slow exhale. So when you exhale, your heart rate actually decreases, when you do deep diaphragmatic breathing into the bottom of the lungs it turns on the nerve centre for the parasympathetic nervous system. Long, slow exhale breath retention, breathing deep into the lungs can all move you into that state of rest and digestion.

So you may have heard of Navy seals using the box breathing technique, which is four in, four hold, four out four hold and you’re slowly moving into that parasympathetic state. Dr. Andrew Whale recommends the 478 breathing pattern, four in, hold seven, out eight. All of these have the long exhale and breathe retention in common and they’re going to move you into that system. So when do you use this overactive mind before sleep? If you’re struggling to sleep, it’s generally because you’re tweaked up from looking at your screen before bed, too much stress during the day and it’s just, am I good enough, all these things at work? What about my kids’ never-ending worry? And so this style of breathing pattern can move you out of that nervous system state. For me, right now I’ve chosen this, but I’m working 14 hours a day, 15 hours a day in front of a computer and so when that ends, I’m not even a human being. I’m just thinking and so overwhelmed and so before I can like be there and be present with my wife and are soon to a born baby I need to do deep breathing, I need to use the 478 patterns for five minutes.

I need to use box breathing and I kind of shut down my computer and I say to myself, Hey, I’m done for the day. Like notes, my computer shut they can go into a notepad and I’m not thinking about work for the day and I use that breathing to shift into as I said, that nervous system state, where we find presence and emotion. And then finally, this breathing, which people will probably be interested in your community is this psychedelic-like breathing, so holotropic, transformational, clarity breathing. There are a number of names for this, all of these have one thing in common, you are reducing the amount of CO2 in the body, constricting the blood vessels, and slowing the blood flow to the brain as a result, the prefrontal cortex is part of our mind responsible for the ego. So the, I’m not good enough. I’m not lovable, the fear centre, this control this executive function that’s saying, Hey, I want to avoid this, or I’m craving that part of the brain shuts down. And as a result, we lose a sense of self, our sense of time, our sense of perception, all of that changes. And in that change, when that part of the brain shuts down, we process emotions. 

So this is why breathing is often compared to psychedelics, it’s this going beyond the default mode network processing store and stuck emotions in the body, so it could be, childhood fear, childhood trauma, embarrassment, anger. You bring up these emotions and really feel into them and release them. And I’ve seen this happen thousands of times, it’s incredible to watch and so you’re reregulating the nervous system, and you can do that through any of those styles of breath work. So it’s an amazing tool you can use in under 10 minutes, push the gas pedal on your state when you need, maybe it’s before a big meeting, to find relaxation, maybe it’s before a job interview, when you’re nervous or after work to like get in the zone to be with your partner, or maybe it’s to do a deep dive and, and process emotions that are under the surface. 

Laura Dawn: So can we just recap, so if we want to wake up and I think there’s also a reframe around the word stress, and I don’t know about you, but I’m in a deep rewriting of my narrative around stress does not equal bad. And I think actually the relationship that we have to stress is really indicative of actually how we mobilize around it and how we leverage that kind of energy to channel that focus. I just read this incredible book called the upside of stress, by Kelly McGonagall all includes that in the show notes, such an amazing read. I wanted to mention that, but I also just wanted to do a very clear recap. So when we want to sort of ignite energy in the body, let’s say in the morning, can you recap that?

Robbie Bent: Yeah, it’s basically want to be cycling CO2 faster. So you’re breathing out faster, breathing in faster. So there are two things happening, one is on inhaling your heart rate is increasing, and then two, by reducing the amount of CO2 in the body you’re creating this fight or flight response. So the breath of fire is an example. So like, it’s really like in and out quite quickly, even just rhythmic breathing, so sort of the Wim Hof method people might be familiar with. So it’s kind of in, out for 30 breaths without holding in between, and then going into a breath-hold, so what you’re doing by reducing the amount of CO2 in the body, you’re triggering the fight or flight. So fast breathing, no holds at all, and that’s how the breathing will kick in the fight or flight.

Laura Dawn: Okay, so there’s not necessarily a distinction between the lengths of the inhale versus the exhale to activate the sympathetic part of the nervous system. It’s more about a quick inhale and exhale.

Robbie Bent: Yes, exactly.

Laura Dawn: Okay, and then to slow down, that’s where you’re referencing box breathing and these techniques with a long inhale, slower exhale.

Robbie Bent: Yes, exactly longer exhale. So long, slow exhale, shorter inhale through the nose inhaling less oxygen.

Laura Dawn: Can we do an example of a slowing down activating the parasympathetic nervous system? Because I think that is really applicable to most people right now.

Robbie Bent: Yeah, absolutely. So a really nice one is that’s very simple is like a four in, seven holds, eight out, and this is pioneered by Dr. Andrew Weil to get to sleep. It’s something he talks about quite a bit, his line is that if you want to focus on one thing for health and longevity, the first is the breath. And so we’re going to even make it, let’s call this the two minute, like Sam Harris style break in case of emergency, I’m having a panic attack and so we’re going to add a four, seven, eight, maybe four. So we’ll call it four, seven, eight, four, and that’s a four hold on after the exhale. So we can just do it now, if you’re getting ready, close your eyes, be in a space where you don’t have to do anything and all this is going to happen through the nose. So inhale two, three, four, hold six, five, four, three, two, one, exhale. Seven, six, five, four, three, two, one, hold. Three, two, one, inhale through the nose, we’ll do one more. Three, two, one, hold. Six, five, four, three, two, one exhale. Seven, six, five, four, three, two, one, hold. Three, two, one, nice big breath in through the nose and then release with a sigh. So you can extend that pattern, maybe aim for four of those over a two-minute period, and you can start to move your state into the person. How do you feel now after doing that, you notice a shift?

Laura Dawn: It’s ar noticeable state shift for sure, definitely. And so what would you say would be a great two-minute sequence if I’m about to give a presentation or step out on stage and what was the difference between that and, for example, the box breathing that we hear so many people talk about, especially the Navy seals that use this?

Robbie Bent: So the box breathing and what we just did are quite similar, except we’re pushing it even further. So a box breathing, I would do if I had more time and I just wanted to sort of find focus, what we just did it now is great for like, I’m having a panic attack and so it’s even boxing breathing, it’s a box, so you can think to inhale six, hold six, exhale six, hold six. And this one, we were inhaling four, but then much longer hold seven, four and eight exhale. So you compare the holds and the exhale to the inhale. It’s quite a bit longer. So that’s like, I’m really struggling right now, I’m having anxiety, I feel panic in my body. I don’t feel good about myself. That’s perfect, we’ll call it an anxiety reliever.

Now, if I’m going up on stage, it depends on how I feel. So it could be, Hey, I’m having immense anxiety about what these people are thinking of me. And that one we just did is perfect. It could be, I want to like ramp up my nervous system. I’m hyped, I’m ready to go, I want to get in the zone and just like feel into my power and so this might be before like a sales call where you’re not necessarily nervous. It might be before the presentation where you just want to want to give it. And so I think I would recommend sort of one style of one round Tummo breathing similar to Wim Hof. So I personally like the in three out one. So it’s in through the nose and in through the mouth all the way up, like filling the lungs and if you put a hand on your belly, you want to expand it fully.

So that in two, three out, in two, three out, you want to try it? Maybe we’ll do like in two minutes, we’ll do about 15 of those breaths, and then at the end of those 15, we’re going to take a big breath in, hold and squeeze it once at the top like fill up exhale. We’re going to hold on empty and we’ll just do it for about 15 seconds, hold on empty and then we’re going to bring it in again, big inhale and we’re going to squeeze all the blood flow to the head. And then we’re going to release with just like, again, this might sound funny, but if I was going for ultimate pump up, I’d release with like a scream of power. It’s just to get your mind-set ready. So, let’s try. We’ll go, just follow, I’m going to count, and it’s hard for me to breathe, but that all the way like filling your belly, your chest all the way to the brain and then click out. So in two, three out, in two, three out, in two, three out, in two, three out, in two, three out. Five more, in two, three out, in two, three out. In two, three out, in two, three out, in two, three out. In two, three out, two more, in two, three out, in two, three out. Big in all the way in, all the way out, exhaling and holding on empty, we’re going to hold here for about 20 seconds. 

And then this hold, I would generally say what one moment of gratitude for today is? What was something exciting, a cup of coffee, your sunshine, whatever you feel and getting ready for that big breath in that first breath of life and that squeeze, we’re going to squeeze it to the head in three, two, one, big inhale, squeezing all the way to head squeezing your hands, your feet, pushing that blood flow to the brain and getting ready to release with like a roar. And don’t worry about being silly, in three, two, and one.

Laura Dawn: Oh, I love it. I mean, why is it that the hold feels so freaking good? The holds and the really long holds are where it’s just like my joy zone. I’m like, there’s something about it. I feel like I’m floating in the void.

Robbie Bent: I just personally love if you’re doing that style of breathing past 10 minutes, 15 minutes, 20 minutes, you’re really starting to slow the blood flow to the brain and it goes beyond the fight or flight. It starts to go into that emotional processing we mentioned. And so we really like to layer in an NLP hypnosis style script. So maybe in the hold, when was the time you felt powerful and what’s happening is because your conscious mind that part of your mind, that’s always like judging and criticizing and it’s so strong. I have this to-do list, the breath work softens and so we start to ask you questions in that state, maybe it brings up a version of yourself that needs some love, and send it some love. Perhaps it’s a forgiveness ritual. So we found a really unique method of combining breath with some of these, you mentioned like neuroscience and psychotherapy approaches to emotions in that state.

Laura Dawn: Amazing. What’s your take on combining breath work with psychedelics, whether it’s a micro dose, a mini dose, or a large dose, do you warn people to be careful about that combination?

Robbie Bent: Yeah, I think it’s dependent. So one, we would never publicly recommend combining psychedelics and, and breath work for people who have used it, I’ve never seen it be dangerous. I think one thing to consider is if you’re using a 10 minute fight or flight breath work as we mentioned, or a rest and digest, anything we’ve just covered I think is completely safe. As you get into the 30-minute plus Breath works you are creating space to open up trauma and so I think if you have a history of mental health, PTSD, nervousness of things that happen in childhood and surfacing those feelings, it’s really important to have support. So we work with Remedy Clinic in Toronto, and we work with Being True to You. We’ve got a number of coaches on staff so if something happens there is support because people just like psychedelic medicines if you went into the woods on your own and took three grams of Psilocybin, of course, there’s danger at any time. And so the first thing is like, is it safe to use psychedelics? The next is, is it safe to use breath work? And so that’s something that you can decide based on having done both and your mental health assessment with a therapist.

Personally, I’ve used breath work with ketamine with like extremely solid results, low dose ketamine taken in a loin format or intranasal and I’ve also used breath work with low doses of psilocybin with extremely solid results. And then I’ve used breath work and I’m when I talk about breath work, I mean it’s more aggressive, like holotropic fast breathing style, and then I’ve also used breath work with cannabis, and there’s a guy Daniel McQueen who has a whole program on breath work with cannabis, where you can get to no joke, like Iowaska like states. So I think all three that breath work with Iowoska ketamine with Psilocybin can have some very interesting effects but also want to put it out there that I’m not a therapist, I’m not recommending that. And there are dangers, so you need to think of where you’re at with your psychedelic use but I have seen, I personally used all three of those and had amazing effects, I would say at high dose psychedelics like Psilocybin and LSD, `there’s no need for breath work. You’re already having the experience. Your mind’s already shut down. You’re not going to get added value from also doing it. I would say that the value comes from lighter dose psychedelics and THD.

Laura Dawn: I appreciate that and also sometimes working with breath work leading into a big journey could be a nice way to sort of prepare your mind-set to go into those deeper dives. So maybe not at the same time, but maybe even in the preparation beforehand.

Robbie Bent: Absolutely. Especially if you feel nervous, nervousness which many people do, I have used psychedelic medicines hundreds of times and still I get super scared and I’m not afraid to say that. If I’m going to take a big dose, I’ll feel extremely nervous knowing what’s going to happen. I think after you’ve had some challenging experiences, that’s kind of more common, so it’s totally normal to feel fear and then to use breath work and somatic body-based practices to prepare for a ceremony for sure.

Laura Dawn: So you’ve used the word trauma a few times and the way that bre